Frontosa.com

Frontosa.com is dedicated to the discussion and husbandry of African Cichlids especially the Frontosa/Gibberosa species.
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 Post subject: why wild caught over tank breed
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:50 pm 
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Hi, Can you tell me why wild caught fronts are prefered/better than tank breed fronts?
and whats the difference in price?
Thanks


Wed May 06, 2009 10:50 pm
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:42 pm 
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Many buyers want F1 fish (first generation from wild) so if you have wild fish, you can supply what they want. Also wild fish are available as adults whereas you might have to wait 2 years before young bred fish are ready to spawn. As to price, I'm not too sure. I paid £125 per fish for my wild Tembwe. F1 would have been around £30-40 I would think depending on size, more for adults and more in London, I'm not too sure on F1 prices though as you don't see Zaires offered for sale as juvies very often. Burundi juvies can often be picked up for £5 off the net but they are probably many generations removed from wild.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 12:27 am 
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Its a debate.
People talk conservation, yet we "rape" the environment for wild fish.
Thats a line flowerhorn people like to throw at us, since they don't steal fish from the wild.

Wild fish do not look better then tank raised.
Thats why we have line bred fish. Tank bred peacocks are bigger and more colorful then what came out of the lake.

Owning wild is kind of a prestige thing. Anyone can run down to the store and get a tank raised fish from a pet store, but not everyone has a fish that they special ordered and waited for from Africa.

Also, does seller or buyer control the market?
Most buyers want either adult wild fish, or young F1.
At least with Zaire people, tell them you got F2 Zaire and they will hang up on you.
If you have F100 burundi, no body cares. No real price difference between adult "wild" burundi and F100 adults. Mostly because no market for wild burundi.
Really the market is dead for anything but Wild Zaire Blues, or F1 Zaire Blues.


Back to the line bred point. When done right, tank bred fish are better looking and more healthy.
The "myth" with wild caught fish is that they are better genetic wise.
People know that crossing brothers and sisters in SOME animals leads to congenital defects. Fish can handle in a bit more then other animals. If you are careful with your inbreeding and introduce new blood every 3rd or 4th generation you will have zero problems.

6 inch WC zaire from a dealer runs about $120-150.
How much is a F1 six inch moba worth, 90?

right there it tells you its not worth it to try and grow out your fish to sell to make more money. Every real fish breeder will tell you sell the fry soon as they are safe to move. Thats where the profit is. Not wasting a year, alot of food, energy and water changes to get a fish to 4 or 5 inches.

Outside of Zaire.
5 inch WC mpimbwe run about 80-99 bucks.
5 inch F1 mpimbwe, about 40.
5 inch F100 mpimbwe at LFS is about 100 bucks.
First price is online dealer.
Second price is private sellers, online dealers would sell the F1 inbetween their wild price and private breeders F1 price.
LFS price is usually alot higher due to overhead.


Thu May 07, 2009 12:27 am
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 Post subject: Re: why wild caught over tank breed
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 4:38 am 
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Great run down tr6,thank's.


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 Post subject: Re: why wild caught over tank breed
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 7:19 am 
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WOW! What a response... load of info! I LOVED IT! I recently purchased F1 fish. WC fish tend to have more problems and more work to satisfy there needs.... although I heard there fry bring more $$$$$...... I am not insterested in making money, just having healthy fish, that are less matainence.... Personal preferance, do you want to make bank????? or do you want a hobby and easier to maintain pet????? The reason for purchasing F1 fish is because its easier to get a response on forums like this..... allot of overbread fish may have things wrong with them because of over breeding. and my not get the answer your looking for.... may be a myth, but worth the extra couple bucks in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: why wild caught over tank breed
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 12:15 pm 
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I buy F1 such that I am not "raping the lake" but the demand for F1 causes people to spend the $ for WC fish to be a to able to supply the f1 fry.

The other reason people get WC is often more instant fry production (not as much any more as WC come in smaller then they used to) so faster return on there $$$. When you can get wc Moba for 130+ from the right spot, when fry are 30-40 a piece it does not take long to pay for a group once they start to produce well. So for some people it a $ thing.

I keep the frontosa I have simply because they are my favorite fish. Itajoy to watch them breed and I love watching the fry grow. And If I can share at a reasonable price fry to other frontosa addict to pay for fish food, then why not.

Bruce

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 Post subject: Re: why wild caught over tank breed
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 9:55 pm 
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Boy, am I glad I found this site :D I can not believe the quality of info you get, thank you.

Here in the uk Burundi are very common, Zaire not so. Very rare to see F1 Zaire fry or any females. You do get the odd wc male, funny that almost all males for sale seem to be wc.

How can you tell if a font is really a WC one, maybe not by looking at the fish, but by looking at how the fish are kept / the setup / if the seller knows what hes talking about?

Where do you buy your fish though classifieds/ebay type places, lfs, or only through reputable breeders/importers?


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 11:33 pm 
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As far as raping the lake, well its a big lake! The number of wild fish being imported is insignificant I would think compared to the huge numbers caught by local people for food.
I have a genuine wild male for sale right now on Aquarist classifieds http://www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk/p ... chlids.php - thats where I sometimes buy/sell fish from, although my Tembwe were bought from a friend who is into fronts in a big way. I had to buy more males than I wanted to get the females as its hard to find someone who will just sell females, this is maybe why there are lots of males for sale. Some shops will bring them in for you (Maidenhead in west London recently had trios of wild Tembwe for sale at £700 - mad price) or drive to Holland and buy them http://www.verduijncichlids.com/index_eng.htm
If you buy off the net make sure you see pics of the actual fish and check their history.
Its a big investment but if you enjoy it, its worth it.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 2:13 am 
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Catching an animal for food is one thing.
Catching an animal that is near extinction in order to breed it and then release, such as the California Condor, and many Victorian cichlids is one thing.

Many will say catching a animal from the wild in order to go in a tiny tank, is not much different then shooting for sport, or to wear a fur coat.
not saying i agree with that, but i certainly see the point.
There really is little reason to take animals from the wild when nearly all of them are being bred in captivity.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:38 am 
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tr6";p="12575 wrote:
There really is little reason to take animals from the wild when nearly all of them are being bred in captivity.


Can't argue with that. As you said earlier its a prestige thing and market demand.
If more breeders took greater care in sourcing their breeding stock from different locations rather than breeding brothers and sisters it would sure help to improve quality. On the other hand, without wild imports continuing, we might all be keeping f100 Burundis and might not even know about all the other varieties.

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 Post subject: Re: why wild caught over tank breed
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 11:47 pm 
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Well my WC look happy they didn't end up with a side order of chips (fries :wink: )
thats for sure!


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 1:48 am 
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tr6";p="12508 wrote:
Its a debate.
People talk conservation, yet we "rape" the environment for wild fish.
Thats a line flowerhorn people like to throw at us, since they don't steal fish from the wild.

Wild fish do not look better then tank raised.
Thats why we have line bred fish. Tank bred peacocks are bigger and more colorful then what came out of the lake.

Owning wild is kind of a prestige thing. Anyone can run down to the store and get a tank raised fish from a pet store, but not everyone has a fish that they special ordered and waited for from Africa.

Also, does seller or buyer control the market?
Most buyers want either adult wild fish, or young F1.
At least with Zaire people, tell them you got F2 Zaire and they will hang up on you.
If you have F100 burundi, no body cares. No real price difference between adult "wild" burundi and F100 adults. Mostly because no market for wild burundi.
Really the market is dead for anything but Wild Zaire Blues, or F1 Zaire Blues.


Back to the line bred point. When done right, tank bred fish are better looking and more healthy.
The "myth" with wild caught fish is that they are better genetic wise.
People know that crossing brothers and sisters in SOME animals leads to congenital defects. Fish can handle in a bit more then other animals. If you are careful with your inbreeding and introduce new blood every 3rd or 4th generation you will have zero problems.

6 inch WC zaire from a dealer runs about $120-150.
How much is a F1 six inch moba worth, 90?

right there it tells you its not worth it to try and grow out your fish to sell to make more money. Every real fish breeder will tell you sell the fry soon as they are safe to move. Thats where the profit is. Not wasting a year, alot of food, energy and water changes to get a fish to 4 or 5 inches.

Outside of Zaire.
5 inch WC mpimbwe run about 80-99 bucks.
5 inch F1 mpimbwe, about 40.
5 inch F100 mpimbwe at LFS is about 100 bucks.
First price is online dealer.
Second price is private sellers, online dealers would sell the F1 inbetween their wild price and private breeders F1 price.
LFS price is usually alot higher due to overhead.


you said it all bro ,,very nice way to put it....


Mon May 11, 2009 1:48 am
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 11:50 pm 
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I had a colony of WC Mpimbwe's all 5-6" 10 years ago. They were no better looking than most Fronts I had seen. Also they were very skitish and very hard to feed. One of them had float (brought to the surface to quickly), and eventually died. As far as feeding they would only eat thawed , cut and peeled shrimp. They never ate flakes , pellets or store food of any kind no matter how much I starved or tried. I even bought a very expensive "garlic" treatment for the food which did nothing. I grew bored with the fish because their behavior never changed . They always "ran" to the corners whenever I appeared and would stay hidden until I left ....this went on for 3 years until I sold them all for far less than I paid for them ....I just wanted to get rid of them. I will never buy WC again , they just don't belong in a tank I had 6 of them in my 180 and still could get no joy out of them. I did my water changes and kept up with all maintenence but was getting severely burnt out , to the point I was questioning wether to stay in the hobby or not. I now have F1 Gibberosa's from Jeff Rapp , along with 2 F1 mpimbwe's I "saved" from an LFS....and couldn't be happier. Nothing against you folks with WC, I have seen all the galleries on this board and they are fantastic to say the least . I am sure most of you have had great success with WC. It just didn't work for me for whatever reason. Also personally I did have some apprehension taking a fish from a lake and putting him in a tank...I wish I had followed my gut on that one.


Tue May 26, 2009 11:50 pm
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:03 am 
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also there are some people that with the price of wild caught and even some of the f1 for that matter will settle for anything they can get even if it is an f100 witch hurts some of us that do try and keep better quality fish


Wed May 27, 2009 12:03 am
       
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:46 pm 
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The question is: How can one tell if it's WC or Non WC ?


Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:46 pm
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